Podcast: By the Train Tracks in Queens. Episode 3, USA v. García Luna

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Published on: December 16, 2022

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MARIA: DEAR LISTENER, JUST A QUICK WARNING: THERE’S EXPLICIT LANGUAGE, TALK ABOUT DRUG OVERDOSES AND 9-11 RELATED TRAUMA IN THIS EPISODE, SO JUST BE AWARE.

VOICE: PREVIOUSLY ON “USA VS. GARCÍA LUNA”

PENILEY: WHEN YOU COVER A PERSON FOR SUCH A LONG PERIOD OF TIME, YOU WANT TO UNDERSTAND THE CHARACTER. WHAT THINGS HE LIKED, WHAT WAS HIS DREAMS, HIS ROUTINES…

MARIA: SO U.S MONEY WAS BEING USED TO BUY EQUIPMENT, WHICH WAS THEN BEING USED TO SPY ON POLITICAL OPPONENTS WITHIN MEXICO.

PENILEY: WHEN HE WAS WITH HIS BOSSES, HE NEVER TALKED BACK. PEOPLE REMEMBER THAT THE PHRASE THAT CHARACTERIZED HIM THE MOST WAS: “YES, SIR. YES, SIR.”

MARIA: HELLO, DEAR LISTENER. IT’S MARIA HINOJOSA, AND I’M HERE WITH MY CO-HOST, PENILEY RAMÍREZ. HELLO, PENILEY. 

PENILEY  HELLO, MARIA, AND HELLO, DEAR FUTURO LISTENER. 

MARIA: SO THIS IS EPISODE THREE OF OUR SERIES “USA V. GARCÍA LUNA,” AND WE KNOW WHAT YOU’RE EXPECTING, BUT TODAY, WE’RE ACTUALLY GOING TO START THINGS A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENTLY. 

PENILEY: SO TODAY, MARIA, I WANT TO INVITE YOU AND OUR LISTENER TO A LITTLE PASEO. A ROAD TRIP. 

MARIA: A ROAD TRIP, OKAY. 

PENILEY: HERE IN NEW YORK, BECAUSE MAYBE YOU DON’T KNOW THIS, BUT SOME KEY MOMENTS OF OUR STORY ACTUALLY HAPPEN HERE. SO, WOULD YOU WANT TO GO WITH ME? 

MARIA: OF COURSE, PENILEY, I LIKE THE IDEA OF “WE’RE GOING ON A ROAD TRIP,” SO VAMONOS

[THEME SONG]

MARIA: WE’RE ON THIS BRIDGE THAT’S TAKING US INTO QUEENS. IF MANHATTAN IS THE WORLD, QUEENS IS THE UNIVERSE. 

PENILEY: WHY? 

MARIA: BECAUSE TODO, TODO EN EL MUNDO, EVERYTHING THAT YOU CAN POSSIBLY EXIST. EVERY POSSIBLE COUNTRY ESTÁ REPRESENTADO EN QUEENS, IS RIGHT HERE IN QUEENS. I DON’T KNOW WHY WE’RE GOING INTO QUEENS. I JUST KNOW WE’RE ON OUR WAY TO QUEENS, PERO NO SE POR QUÉ. I STILL DON’T KNOW WHY.

PENILEY: SO, MARIA, WE’RE COMING TO QUEENS BECAUSE I WANT TO SHOW YOU A PLACE. SO, THE SINALOA CARTEL CREATED A COMPANY. IT WAS CALLED FOUR QUEENS SOYBEAN OIL COMPANY.

MARIA: WAIT, WHAT! “FOUR QUEENS SOYBEAN OIL” IS THE NAME OF THE COMPANY?

PENILEY: IT WAS A REAL COMPANY CREATED IN 2002 AND THEY WERE IMPORTING SOYBEAN OIL FROM MEXICO TO NEW YORK, BUT THE REAL PURPOSE OF THE COMPANY IS THAT THEY WERE BRINGING DRUGS FROM MEXICO TO THE U.S., USING THIS AS A FRONT COMPANY.

THIS IS THE FIRST TIME I COME TO THIS PART OF QUEENS, SO I DON’T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THIS PART.

MARIA: SO YOU KNEW ABOUT THIS PLACE WHEN YOU WERE REPORTING, AND NOW THIS IS THE FIRST TIME THAT YOU’RE ACTUALLY GOING TO SEE IT DE VERDAD?

PENILEY: YEAH, I KNEW ABOUT THIS PLACE BECAUSE IT WAS PART OF EL CHAPO GUZMÁN’S TRIAL. SO DURING EL CHAPO’S TRIAL, THEY ACCUSED HIM OF RECEIVING SOME DRUGS AND ALL THE DETAILS FROM THAT OPERATION WERE IN THE TRIAL, AND I WAS COVERING THE TRIAL. 

MARIA: SO WHAT ARE YOU FEELING MÁS BIEN? YOU’RE ALWAYS ASKING ME QUESTIONS, BUT I’M LIKE, YOU, ACTUALLY, YOU GOT A CONNECTION TO THIS. SO WHAT ARE YOU FEELING ABOUT BEING IN QUEENS?

PENILEY IT’S WEIRD FOR ME BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, I’VE BEEN IN A LOT OF FIELD TRIPS REGARDING DRUG TRAFFICKING, BUT NEVER IN THE U.S. SO, I WONDER IF I WILL FEEL THAT SAME MIX OF EXCITEMENT AND FEAR THAT I USED TO FEEL WHEN I WAS IN MEXICO COVERING THIS.

MARIA:] BUT LOOK WHERE WE ARE: THIS IS A COMPLETELY INDUSTRIAL PART OF QUEENS. SO IT MAKES PERFECT SENSE THAT SOMEONE LIKE EL CHAPO, ALLEGEDLY WITH THE HELP OF SOMEONE LIKE GARCÍA LUNA, WOULD HAVE THEIR BUSINESS HERE BECAUSE THIS IS INDUSTRIAL BUSINESS CENTER OF NEW YORK CITY. SO IF YOU’RE A DRUG DEALER BRINGING MASSIVE AMOUNTS OF DRUGS, THIS WOULD BE THE PERFECT PLACE.

PENILEY: LET ME CHECK THE ADDRESS…

MARIA: ALL RIGHT, PENILEY, SO WHAT DO YOU SEE?  

PENILEY: IT’S A BIG INSTALLATION. THEY HAVE, LIKE, DIFFERENT WAREHOUSES FROM —

MARIA: IT’S LIKE A GARAGE ENTRANCE, RIGHT? 

PENILEY: YEAH. IT SAYS DISTRIBUTION CENTER.  

MARIA:  A DISTRIBUTION CENTER. I SEE.

PENILEY: DO YOU SEE ANY SIGN UP FOUR QUEENS SOYBEAN OIL. THE COMPANY THEY USED TO HAVE. 

MARIA:  NO, BUT I THINK WE’LL PROBABLY HAVE TO GET DOWN AND WALK THROUGH.  ALL RIGHT. LET’S GET OUT. 

PENILEY: OKAY, LET’S GET OUT.

MARIA: SO THE FIRST THING THAT YOU SEE, YOU COME UP A LITTLE SOME STAIRS AND YOU SEE SO LIKE AN INTERNAL LITTLE MARKETPLACE WITHIN. 

PENILEY: AND A LOT OF FLAGS FROM DIFFERENT COUNTRIES.  

MARIA: OH YEAH. LOOK.

PENILEY: YEAH, WE CAN SEE PRODUCTS FROM JAMAICA, FROM CHINA, FROM KOREA.

MARIA: IT’S LIKE A STORAGE FACILITY. THAT’S WHAT IT IS. IT’S LIKE A STORAGE FACILITY, BUT IT’S FOR MERCHANDISE. I MEAN, WE KNOW THAT GARCÍA LUNA, RIGHT. ALLEGEDLY WAS WORKING WITH EL CHAPO. SO WE KNOW THAT. AND WE KNOW THAT GARCÍA LUNA ALLEGEDLY WAS WORKING— NO, NOT ALLEGEDLY, HE WAS WORKING WITH THE DEA. BUT WHAT EXACTLY IS THE CONNECTION OF GARCÍA LUNA TO THIS PLACE?

PENILEY: SO RIGHT NOW, THIS PLACE IS DIRECTLY RELATED TO GARCÍA LUNA’S CHARGES BECAUSE THE NEW YORK PROSECUTORS ARE ACCUSING HIM OF HELPING EL CHAPO TO SMUGGLE SEVERAL SHIPMENTS OF DRUGS TO THIS PLACE IN QUEENS. AND FROM HERE, IT WAS THEN DISTRIBUTED TO NEW YORK CITY, AND TO CHICAGO USING THIS PLACE AND THE COMPANY THAT THEY CREATED THAT WAS OPERATING RIGHT HERE. BUT WE DON’T SEE ANY SIGN OF THAT COMPANY NOW. SO I DON’T KNOW WHERE THEY’RE OPERATING NOW. MAYBE THEY HAVE ANOTHER COMPANY, MAYBE THEY HAVE ANOTHER WAREHOUSE, BUT IS NOT HERE ANYMORE. 

MARIA: WHAT EXACTLY IS GARCÍA LUNA ACCUSED OF DOING REGARDING THIS? DID HE SIGN PAPERS? DID HE MAKE CONNECTIONS? LIKE, WHAT IS THE SPECIFICITY OF THE CHARGE? 

PENILEY: WHAT WE KNOW SO FAR IS THAT HE WAS ACCUSED OF HELPING THE SINALOA CARTEL TO BRING THE DRUGS UP TO HERE. THE KIND OF HELP EXACTLY, WE WILL LEARN THAT IN THE TRIAL. THAT’S WHY IT’S REALLY IMPORTANT THAT WE HAVE A TRIAL.

PENILEY: THIS SPOT WAS IMPORTANT BECAUSE IT WAS NEAR THE TRAIN TRACKS. SO I WILL LOVE IF WE CAN WALK A LITTLE AND SEE….

MARIA: YOU THINK WE’RE GOING TO SEE THE TRAIN TRACKS?

PENILEY: LET’S SEE, LET’S SEE? 

[WALKING SFX]

MARIA: WE ARE STANDING ON TOP OF THE TRAIN TRACKS. THE TRAIN TRACKS THAT CONNECT US TO CHICAGO, TO THE SOUTHERN UNITED STATES, TEXAS, MEXICO. AND HERE WE ARE: WE’RE ON THE TRAIN TRACKS. THAT, BY THE WAY, LA VERDAD LA VERDAD, REMINDS ME OF MEXICO. DO THESE TRAIN TRACKS LOOK JUST LIKE THEY COULD BE RIGHT OUT OF MEXICO? 

PENILEY: YEAH, WE COULD BE IN A FIELD TRIP IN MEXICO CITY OR ANY CITY OF MEXICO?

MARIA:  ISN’T THAT CRAZY? 

PENILEY: WHICH BRINGS US TO, YOU KNOW, ALL THIS IS AN INTERCONNECTED BUSINESS. IT’S DIFFERENT TO FOLLOW A STORY FROM THE DOCUMENTS THAT ACTUALLY GO INTO THE FIELD. BECAUSE WHEN YOU COME HERE, YOU SAY THIS GUYS WERE… I DON’T WANT TO SAY BRILLIANT, BUT THEY KNEW WHAT THEY WERE DOING. THEY KNEW WHAT THEY WERE DOING. BECAUSE IF I’M RUNNING A LEGAL OR ILLEGAL BUSINESS AND I NEED TO DISTRIBUTE TO NEW YORK AND I DON’T WANT TO BE NOTICED, THIS IS EXACTLY THE PLACE I WILL BE.  

MARIA: EXACTLY. I MEAN, SO YOU DON’T WANT TO SAY THEY’RE BRILLIANT, BUT AT THE SAME TIME AS BUSINESS PEOPLE, THEY HAD THEIR STUFF DOWN.  

PENILEY: THIS PART IS REALLY IMPORTANT IN THE STORY, BECAUSE IN JANUARY OF 2003, TWO TONS OF COCAINE WERE SEIZED IN THE WAREHOUSE WE JUST SAW. ACTUALLY IT WAS IN THE NEWS ALL OVER THE PLACE. THE POLICE WERE REALLY EXCITED ABOUT IT. AND IT WAS LIKE A BIG DEAL IN THIS MOMENT WHEN THE U.S. AUTHORITIES WERE TRYING TO DEAL WITH ALL THE DRUG TRAFFICKING FROM THE SOUTH BORDER. 

THE PROSECUTORS HERE IN NEW YORK SAID THAT THESE TWO TONS OF COCAINE THAT WAS SEIZED WAS ONE OF THE EARLIEST DRUG SHIPMENTS THAT GARCÍA LUNA HELPED TO DELIVER TO THE U.S. SO THIS IS WHY THE TRIAL AGAINST HIM WILL BE HERE IN NEW YORK.

MARIA: SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE WHAT HE WAS DOING IN AND AROUND THIS WAREHOUSE?

PENILEY: EXACTLY. EXACTLY IN THIS PLACE WHERE WE ARE STANDING RIGHT NOW.

IN ALL THESE YEARS, MARIA, I HAVE BEEN BUILDING MY OWN DATABASE AND I HAVE BEEN PUTTING A LOT OF DOCUMENTS TOGETHER TO TRY TO UNDERSTAND THIS PUZZLE, SO LET’S GO BACK TO THE STUDIO, AND I WILL SHOW YOU SOME OF MY FINDINGS. 

MARIA: OOH, SO FROM THE STREETS TO THE STUDIO. 

[MUSIC]

MARIA: SO WE JUST GOT INTO THE STUDIO AND YOU JUST PICKED UP THE TEQUILA SHOT AND YOU WERE ABOUT TO DRINK IT WITHOUT SAYING SALUD, POR FAVOR

PENILEY: AND JUST BY MYSELF.

MARÍA: OKAY, HERE’S OUR TEQUILA. SALUD. 

PENILEY: CHEERS. 

[MUSIC ENDS]

PENILEY: SO, MARIA, IN THIS EPISODE, WE’RE TALKING ABOUT THE CRIMES THAT GARCÍA LUNA IS ACCUSED OF… 

MARIA:AND THEY ARE NOT MISDEMEANORS. THEY’RE FEDERAL CRIMES, RIGHT, COSA GRANDE.

PENILEY: COSA GRANDE. SO, MARIA, THE NEW YORK DISTRICT ATTORNEY’S OFFICE IS ACCUSING GARCÍA LUNA OF RECEIVING MILLIONS OF DOLLARS FROM THE SINALOA CARTEL. SO THE BRIBES WERE IN EXCHANGE FROM AND I’M QUOTING THIS FROM THE DOCUMENTS, “SAFE PASSAGE FOR ITS DRUG SHIPMENTS.”

MARIA: THAT’S A BIG DEAL. 

PENILEY IT’S A BIG DEAL. BUT IT WAS NOT JUST THAT. THEY ALSO ACCUSE HIM OF SHARING WITH DRUG TRAFFICKERS INFORMATION ABOUT OFFICIAL INVESTIGATIONS AGAINST THOSE GUYS.

MARIA: WOW.

PENILEY: SO, FOR EXAMPLE, IF A DRUG LORD WAS INVESTIGATED BY THE MEXICAN GOVERNMENT, GARCÍA LUNA WAS TELLING THEM, “OH, THERE IS AN INVESTIGATION AGAINST YOU.” THIS IS THE ACCUSATION SO FAR. BUT WHAT THEY’RE TELLING IS THAT HE WAS PASSING INFORMATION ABOUT OTHER CARTELS TO THE SINALOA CARTEL. AND HE WAS HELPING THEM TO BRING THE DRUGS HERE TO NEW YORK, TO THE UNITED STATES.

MARIA: I MEAN, IT WOULD HAVE BEEN VERY DIFFICULT TO HAVE AN OPERATION OF THIS SIZE IF YOU DIDN’T HAVE SOMEONE LIKE THIS.

PENILEY: THE FACT THAT GARCÍA LUNA WAS DOING ALL OF THAT, AGAIN, ACCORDING TO THE ACCUSATIONS, ALLOWED THE SINALOA CARTEL TO SEND MORE THAN 50 TONS OF COCAINE TO THE U.S., ESPECIALLY TO NEW YORK, BETWEEN 2002 AND 2007.  

MARÍA: WOW.

PENILEY: SO, THEY’RE ACCUSING HIM OF USING THESE FRONT COMPANIES AND THESE PEOPLE LENDING THEIR NAMES TO HIDE MILLIONS OF DOLLARS, INCLUDING IN THE U.S.

PENILEY: SO FOR NOW, LET’S GO BACK TO 2001, THE YEAR THIS ALL STARTED. AT LEAST IN THE UPCOMING TRIAL.

[MUSIC]

PENILEY: SO, MARIA, WE TALK UP IN THE FIRST EPISODE THAT YOU GOT INTO THIS STORY BECAUSE OF EL CHAPO SERIES.

MARIA: RIGHT. THE TELEVISION SERIES ON NETFLIX IN SPANISH, MADE IN LATIN AMERICA, ABOUT EL CHAPO. YES.

PENILEY: MAYBE YOU WILL REMEMBER THAT IN THIS SERIES. THERE IS A COUPLE OF EPISODES THAT DEAL WITH EL CHAPO’S FIRST ESCAPE FROM PRISON IN JANUARY 2001.

MARIA: RIGHT, THEY SHOW, YOU KNOW, HOW EL CHAPO SUPPOSEDLY GOT OUT OF PRISON IN A LAUNDRY CART.

PENILEY: WELL, ACTUALLY, TODAY I WANT TO TELL YOU ABOUT A LESSER KNOWN SECOND ESCAPE OF EL CHAPO LATER IN THAT SAME YEAR, 2001.

MARIA: WAIT. BUT THERE WAS ANOTHER ESCAPE.

[ARCHIVE]

BUT THAT WAS MUCH, MUCH LATER.

[CLIP ENDS]

PENILEY: IT WAS ANOTHER ESCAPE FROM PRISON YEARS AFTER THE FIRST ONE. 

MARIA: RIGHT. 

PENILEY: BUT THIS ONE, THE ONE I’M TELLING YOU, IS NOT FROM PRISON, BUT FROM A SECRET FAILED ATTEMPT TO RECAPTURE HIM. I FOUND OUT ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED NEXT IN AN EXCLUSIVE INTERVIEW WITH GENERAL ROBERTO AGUILERA, THE FORMER HEAD OF ANTI-NARCOTICS INTELLIGENCE OF THE MEXICAN ARMY. WE MENTIONED HIM AT THE END OF THE LAST EPISODE.

[CLIP]

ROBERTO AGUILERA: MI NOMBRE ES ROBERTO AGUILERA, MI ÚLTIMO GRADO MILITAR ES GENERAL.

[CLIP ENDS]

PENILEY: THIS INTERVIEW I DID WITH HIM —WITH GENERAL AGUILERA— IN 2020 WAS THE FIRST TIME HE SPOKE TO A JOURNALIST ABOUT THIS FAILED OPERATION. 

MARIA: I’M JUST LIKE, HOW DID YOU GET HIM TO TALK?

PENILEY:  WELL… I WAS REALLY…. WE WERE TALKING, LIKE, FOR MONTHS.

MARIA: PERSISTENCE.

PENILEY: YEAH. SO THIS IS THE STORY: THE ARMY WAS SURE THAT EL CHAPO WOULD TRY TO CONTACT HIS FAMILY. 

MARIA: SO AS SOON AS HE ESCAPED, HE WAS GOING TO MAKE CONTACT WITH HIS FAMILY.

PENILEY: EXACTLY. SO WHAT GENERAL AGUILERA DID IS THAT THEY STARTED FOLLOWING THE FAMILY THAT WAS LIVING IN MEXICO CITY. AND THEY WERE RIGHT IN JUNE OF 2001—SO FIVE MONTHS AFTER EL CHAPO FIRST ESCAPED FROM PRISON—HIS CHILDREN TRAVELED BY BUS FROM MEXICO CITY TO NAYARIT—ANOTHER STATE IN THE WEST OF MEXICO. AND THERE A GROUP OF BODYGUARDS PICKED THEM UP AND DROVE THEM TO A SMALL TOWN IN THE MOUNTAINS. IT WAS A SMALL ROAD, THE ONLY WAY IN OR OUT. THEY WERE SURE THAT THE WIFE AND THE CHILDREN WERE MEETING WITH EL CHAPO THERE.

MARIA: I STILL CAN’T BELIEVE THIS GUY IS TALKING TO YOU. I’M JUST LIKE, I CAN’T BELIEVE THE GUY WAS TALKING TO YOU.

PENILEY: ACTUALLY, HE INVITED ME TO HIS HOUSE. SO I WENT AND HE WAS LIKE, “THIS IS THE FIRST TIME A JOURNALIST HAS COME TO MY HOUSE.” BUT THIS WAS IN THE MIDDLE OF THE PANDEMIC. SO I DON’T KNOW IF, WITH A LOT OF PEOPLE DYING. HE THOUGHT THAT THAT WAS THE TIME.

MARIA: WOW. IT’S INCREDIBLE THAT A GENERAL WOULD AGREE TO SPEAK TO A JOURNALIST AND TELL YOU ALL OF THIS. LET’S LISTEN TO WHAT HE SAID.

AGUILERA: SE PLANEÓ HACER UN CERCO PARA QUE NADIE SALIERA DEL ÁREA, DONDE SE ENCONTRABAN ESTOS PUNTOS Y HACER UNA OPERACIÓN AEROMÓVIL.

MARIA: SO WHAT HE SAID IS THAT THEY BASICALLY ENCIRCLED THEM, RIGHT. SO THAT NOBODY COULD LEAVE THIS AREA AND THEY ESTABLISHED THESE KINDS OF POINTS SO THAT THEY COULD MAKE AN OPERATION AEROMOVIL. WHAT’S AN OPERATION…?

PENILEY: BY PLANE. THEY DEPLOYED A DISCREET OPERATION WITH MILITARY FORCES AND POLICE FORCES. SO THEY HAVE A SPECIAL PLANES CIRCLING THE AREA. AND THEY WERE WORKING WITH THE FEDERAL AGENCY OF INVESTIGATION, LA AFI, WHICH GARCÍA LUNA WAS LEADING BY THEN. SO GENERAL AGUILERA PERSONALLY MET GARCÍA LUNA SEVERAL TIMES TO COORDINATE THE SEARCH, AND AFTER A COUPLE OF DAYS, THEY FINALLY FOUND A SMALL HOUSE IN THE MOUNTAINS.

BUT ONCE THEY GOT THERE, THEY DIDN’T FIND ANY CHAPO. IT WAS TOO LATE. THEY WERE GONE. THEY STARTED AN INVESTIGATION, A CRIMINAL INVESTIGATION, ACTUALLY, TO UNDERSTAND WHY THE OPERATION FAILED. AND ONE OF THE WITNESSES TOLD THE POLICE THAT SOMEONE CLOSE TO THE OPERATION TOLD EL CHAPO THAT THE ARMY AND THE POLICE WERE COMING TO CAPTURE HIM AGAIN. THIS IS AGUILERA AGAIN. 

AGUILERA: HABÍAN SIDO ALERTADOS LA GENTE DE GUZMÁN LOERA Y SU FAMILIA POR UNA PERSONA DE LA AFI QUE ESTABA AHÍ EN LA OPERACIÓN”.

MARIA: SO HE BASICALLY SAYS CHAPO AND HIS FAMILY WERE ALERTED BY SOMEBODY WHO IS PART OF THE AFI, YOU KNOW, THE BIG POLICE THAT WAS PART OF THE OPERATION. THIS IS JUST CRAZY. I MEAN, IT’S A HUGE HIGH LEVEL OF CORRUPTION.

PENILEY: YEAH. AND IT’S IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER WHEN THIS HAPPENED: IT IS THE MIDDLE OF 2001. EL CHAPO WASN’T THEN THE BIG DRUG LORD THAT HE BECAME AFTER THAT. SO THIS IS SORT OF THE MOMENTUM IN HIS CRIMINAL CAREER, BECAUSE AFTER HE WAS FREE FROM THAT SECOND ATTEMPT TO RECAPTURE HIM, HE STARTED BUILDING HIS BUSINESS. AND WE KNOW, MARIA, THIS WILL HAVE ENORMOUS AND TRAGIC CONSEQUENCES FOR BOTH MEXICO AND THE U.S.

[MUSIC]

[MIDROLL]

[MUSIC]

MARIA: SO WHAT WAS THE INTEREST OF EL CHAPO? I MEAN, HE ESCAPES FROM PRISON. HE NARROWLY ESCAPES AGAIN THE CLAWS OF THE FEDERAL POLICE. YOU KNOW, IT COULD HAVE BEEN JUST LIKE HE SAID. “OKAY, PUES, YA, MY TIME PASSED,” BUT INSTEAD HE’S LIKE, “OKAY, NOW I’M GOING TO GO HARD AND I’M GOING TO BUILD THIS HUGE BUSINESS,” BUT WHAT WAS HIS MOTIVATION AT THAT POINT?

PENILEY: ACCORDING TO THE TRIAL, HE WAS WILLING TO BE A BIG DRUG LORD. HE WAS IMPORTANT IN THE ORGANIZATION, BUT HE WASN’T THE BIG BOSS THAT HE BECAME AFTER THAT. SO I WONDER IF MEXICO COULD’VE GOT HIM THAT SECOND TIME IN THE MOUNTAINS.

MARIA: WOW.

PENILEY: THIS STORY WOULD BE REALLY DIFFERENT.

MARIA: ALL RIGHT, SO GIVE ME THE TIMELINE. THE YEAR IS 2001. CHAPO ESCAPES.

PENILEY: IN JANUARY.

MARIA: IN JANUARY. HE NARROWLY ESCAPES

PENILEY: JUNE.

MARIA: IN JUNE. AND IS IT AROUND JUNE OR IN THE SUMMER THAT HE STARTS OPENING UP THE WAREHOUSES THAT WE VISITED? 

PENILEY: THEY STARTED A FEW MONTHS AFTER THE ATTACKS ON 9/11.

ARCHIVE

CLIP: THE UNTHINKABLE HAPPENED TODAY. THE WORLD TRADE CENTER, BOTH TOWERS GONE AND WE ARE ALL WITNESSES TO IT, AND TO SOME DEGREE, WE ARE ALL VICTIMS.

[CLIP ENDS]

MARIA: IT WAS RIGHT AFTER 9/11, THIS CABRON DECIDES THAT HE WANTS TO START IMPORTING DRUGS INTO NEW YORK CITY? 

PENILEY: IT WAS A BIG DEMAND. 

MARIA: TO JUST SAY, “WOW, THIS HUGE INTERNATIONAL TRAGEDY OF SEPTEMBER 11 HAS HAPPENED IN NEW YORK CITY. EVERYBODY’S IN TRAUMA IN NEW YORK CITY, HAHA. HERE’S MY MOMENT TO JUMP INTO THE COCAINE MARKET.”

PENILEY: IT’S REALLY HARD AND SAD TO SAY, BUT IF YOU HAVE A MARKET, YOU WILL HAVE SUPPLIERS. 

[MUSIC]

PENILEY: BUT LET’S GO BACK TO GARCÍA LUNA. THIS IS HAPPENING IN MEXICO. GENERAL AGUILERA IS FACING THE FACT THAT HE HAD THIS BIG OPERATION. EVERYTHING WAS GREAT. AND THEN, BOOM, EL CHAPO ESCAPES. SO HE STARTED SUSPECTING GARCÍA LUNA. 

MARIA: WHY DID THIS GENERAL ZERO IN ON GARCÍA LUNA? WHAT WAS HE PICKING UP ON THAT SAID ESTE HUELE FEO. I CAN SMELL SOMETHING AND IT’S NOT GOOD.

PENILEY: I THINK IT IS BECAUSE GENERAL AGUILERA, AS WE HEARD, WAS MEETING WITH GARCÍA LUNA TO SHARE THE DETAILS OF THE OPERATION. SO IT WAS A SUPER SECRET OPERATION. 

MARIA: AND THIS IS 2001?

PENILEY: YEAH. THE AMOUNT OF PEOPLE KNOWING ALL THE DETAILS AND THE TIMING AND THE LOCATION AND EVERYTHING WAS REALLY TINY. AND GARCÍA LUNA WAS LEADING THE OPERATION FROM THE CIVIL SIDE, FROM THE POLICE, AND GENERAL AGUILERA WAS LEADING THE OPERATION FROM THE ARMY SIDE. THAT MEANS THAT THERE WERE NOT A LOT OF POSSIBILITIES OF WHO COULD HAVE SHARED THIS INFORMATION. SO THIS WAS THE SUSPICIONS THAT HE HAD. AND WHAT HE DID AFTER THAT IS THAT HE STARTED THE FIRST INTERNAL INVESTIGATION THAT WE KNOW SO FAR OF GARCÍA LUNA WITH POSSIBLE TIES TO THE DRUG CARTELS.

MARIA: AND THIS WAS REALLY WAY, WAY, WAY, WAY, WAY, WAY, WAY, WAY BACK.

PENILEY: SO ALMOST 20 YEARS BEFORE GARCÍA LUNA WAS TRAPPED IN TEXAS. SO AGUILERA STARTED HIS OWN INVESTIGATION, BUT HE ALSO WENT TO ONE OF HIS CLOSEST FRIENDS: MEXICO’S TOP ANTI-DRUG PROSECUTOR. THAT PROSECUTOR ALSO STARTED AN INDEPENDENT INVESTIGATION INTO GARCÍA LUNA. SO BY THEN WERE TWO DIFFERENT INTERNAL INVESTIGATIONS AROUND GARCÍA LUNA.

MARIA: OK.

PENILEY: AND, MARIA, GENERAL AGUILERA TOLD ME THAT FOR YEARS HE AND OTHERS TRIED TO RAISE SUSPICIONS WITHIN THE GOVERNMENT ABOUT GARCÍA LUNA. AND IN 2006—SO FIVE YEARS AFTER THE FIRST INVESTIGATION—A GROUP OF OTHER GENERALS FROM THE ARMY WARNED THE PRESIDENT CALDERÓN’S SECRETARY OF THE INTERIOR, ABOUT GARCÍA LUNA’S POSSIBLE TIES TO THE SINALOA CARTEL.

MARIA: SO THE PRESIDENT OF MEXICO WAS WARNED.

PENILEY: THIS WAS THE SECRETARY OF INTERIOR FOR CALDERÓN. BUT AFTER THAT, ANOTHER ARMY GENERAL SAID THAT HE PERSONALLY WARNED THE MEXICAN PRESIDENT, FELIPE CALDERÓN, ABOUT GARCÍA LUNA’S POSSIBLE CORRUPTION. SO IT WAS TWO INTERNAL INVESTIGATIONS, A WARNING TO THE SECRETARY OF INTERIOR AND A WARNING PERSONALLY TO THE PRESIDENT.

MARIA: THAT GARCÍA LUNA WAS NOT SMELLING SO CLEAN. OKAY. WHAT YEAR IS IT NOW? 

PENILEY: THIS IS 2006. THE GOVERNMENT IS CHANGING.

[ARCHIVE

TV CORRESPONDENT: CALDERÓN BECAME MEXICO’S PRESIDENT.

CALDERÓN: I SOLEMNLY SWEAR TO DEFEND AND UPHOLD THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED MEXICAN STATES. AND IF I WERE TO FAIL TO DO SO, LET THE NATION HOLD ME ACCOUNTABLE. 

PENILEY: GARCÍA LUNA IS MOVING FROM THE AFI, SO THE FEDERAL INVESTIGATION AGENCY, TO THE SECRETARY OF PUBLIC SECURITY, THE BIG SECRETARY THAT WE SAID IN THE FIRST EPISODE, THAT WAS LIKE DEA, NSA, ALL TOGETHER. SO, BEFORE HE WAS APPOINTED FOR THIS POSITION, THE PRESIDENT RECEIVED ALL THESE WARNINGS. AND AFTER ALL OF THEM, CALDERÓN NAMED GARCÍA LUNA HIS SECRETARY OF PUBLIC SECURITY AND GAVE HIM ALL THE POWER WE HAVE TALKED ABOUT IN PREVIOUS EPISODES.

MARIA: SO IT FEELS A LITTLE BIT SHOCKING BECAUSE THERE’S ALREADY A BUZZ AROUND GARCÍA LUNA, WHICH IS “THIS GUY MAY NOT BE CLEAN,” BUT NONETHELESS HIS TRAJECTORY CONTINUES TO RISE.

PENILEY: CALDERÓN HAS SAID THAT HE WAS NEVER PRESENTED WITH A RELIABLE SOURCE PROOF OR WITNESS AGAINST GARCÍA LUNA. HE SAID THAT IT WAS ONLY RUMORS.

MARIA: ABOUT GARCÍA LUNA.

PENILEY: YEAH, HE SAID THAT ALL OF THIS WAS ONLY RUMORS. EL CHISME.. THAT WE KNOW HE LOVED.

MARIA: [LAUGHS]

PENILEY SO I HAVE BEEN ASKING CALDERÓN FOR AN INTERVIEW FOR A LONG, LONG TIME. AND HE ALWAYS SAYS, “OH, LET’S WAIT UNTIL THE TRIAL. I WANT TO HAVE MORE INFORMATION.” AND I ASKED HIM AGAIN FOR THIS PODCAST, AND HE SAID THAT I SHOULD WAIT UNTIL THE TRIAL. BUT HE HAS GIVEN SOME INTERVIEWS ABOUT THIS SUBJECT. THIS IS HIM IN 2021 WITH ANOTHER JOURNALIST TALKING ABOUT GARCÍA LUNA.

CALDERÓN: LA VERDAD ES QUE HABÍA VERSIONES SOBRE TODO EN UN…EN UN AMBIENTE, EN DONDE LAS DEPENDENCIAS TIENEN UNA DISPUTA. PERO NINGUNA TENÍA UNA FUENTE FIDEDIGNA O UN TESTIGO QUE FUERA CONFIABLE, UNA FUENTE VERIFICABLE. MANDABAS A VERIFICAR Y NO PASABA. Y ENTONCES…

JOURNALIST: NO ESTABA DOCUMENTADO. PUES.

CALDERÓN: Y ADEMÁS EN LA VIDA DIARIA ERA ACREDITADO POR VARIAS AGENCIAS, NO SOLO TODAS LAS MEXICANAS SINO LA DEA, EL FBI, EL ICE

MARIA: I FIND IT VERY INTERESTING THAT YOU HAVE A MEXICAN PRESIDENT SAYING “YOU CAN’T BLAME ME. I MEAN, I TRUSTED THE GUY, BUT COME ON, THE U.S. TRUSTED HIM. THE U.S. GAVE HIM THE SEAL OF APPROVAL. I’M JUST THE MEXICAN PRESIDENT. BUT IF THE U.S. TRUSTS THE GUY, HEY, WE ALL TRUST HIM.” FASCINATING. 

PENILEY: IN THE YEARS AFTER GARCÍA LUNA WAS NAMED A SECRETARY OF PUBLIC SECURITY, MOST OF THE PEOPLE THAT RAISED CONCERNS ABOUT GARCÍA LUNA WERE OUT OF THE PICTURE. SO, FOR EXAMPLE, THE PROSECUTOR AND THE SECRETARY OF INTERIOR, THE ONE THAT WAS WARNED, DIED IN 2008 IN A SUSPICIOUS AIRPLANE ACCIDENT.

MARIA: OKAY, HOLD ON. HOLD ON. WAIT, WAIT, WAIT. OKAY. THIS BEGINS TO SOUND A LITTLE BIT LIKE MAFIOSO. JUST SAY THAT AGAIN.

PENILEY: SO OFFICIALLY, IT WAS AN ACCIDENT. IT WAS INVESTIGATED. BUT THE FACT IS THAT TWO GUYS, ONE WAS WARNED BY THOSE GROUP OF MILITARY GENERALS, AND THE ONE WAS ONE OF THE GUYS DOING AN INTERNAL INVESTIGATION ABOUT GARCÍA LUNA, THEY BOTH DIED TOGETHER IN AN AIRPLANE CRASH IN 2008. SO YOU REMEMBER THERE WAS ANOTHER GENERAL THAT PERSONALLY WARNED CALDERÓN ABOUT GARCÍA LUNA. THIS GENERAL WAS LATER JAILED, ACCUSED OF BEING CORRUPT. AND LATER HE WAS EXONERATED AFTER GARCÍA LUNA WAS NO LONGER IN OFFICE.

MARIA: THERE WERE THREE PEOPLE WHO WE KNOW WERE RAISING CONCERNS. TWO OF THEM DIED IN A SUSPICIOUS CRASH. AND THE OTHER ONE IS SENT TO PRISON.

PENILEY: HE WAS SENT TO PRISON AND THEN HE WAS EXONERATED.

MARIA: AND THEN EXONERATED, OKAY…

PENILEY: AND THE FOURTH ONE IS GENERAL AGUILERA. SO GENERAL AGUILERA WAS SENT TO AN EMBASSY IN SOUTH AMERICA AND THEN HE WAS PRESSURED TO RETIRE.

MARIA: AND THEN HE SPOKE TO YOU.

PENILEY: A LOT OF YEARS AFTER THAT, YEAH, HE TALKED TO ME.

[MUSIC]

PENILEY: AND DURING THOSE YEARS, MARIA, THE DEA HAD ITS OWN INTELLIGENCE ABOUT WHAT WAS HAPPENING IN MEXICO. FOR EXAMPLE, I SPOKE WITH GERARDO GARAY. IN 2007, HE WAS THE CHIEF OF THE ANTI-TRAFFICKING UNIT IN THE MEXICAN FEDERAL POLICE, SO HE WAS A SUBORDINATE OF GARCÍA LUNA.

GARAY TOLD ME THAT IN OCTOBER OF 2007 HE RECEIVED A TIP FROM THE DEA. SO, ACCORDING TO GARAY, THIS DEA AGENT CONTACTED HIM AND TOLD HIM THAT 25 TONS OF COCAINE WERE COMING FROM COLOMBIA TO A PORT IN THE MEXICAN PACIFIC. AND THIS AGENT, ACCORDING TO GARAY, GAVE HIM THE INFORMATION AND EVEN TOLD HIM THE SERIAL NUMBERS OF THE CONTAINERS WHERE THE DRUGS WERE HIDING. 

MARIA: YEAH, I’M JUST LIKE, WHOA, OKAY, THIS IS CRAZY.

PENILEY: SO THEY HAVE A LOT OF INFORMATION, AS YOU CAN SEE. 

MARIA: RIGHT. RIGHT. 

PENILEY: AND THEY CALLED GARAY AND THEY TOLD HIM THAT “THIS IS COMING, COULD YOU CHECK IT.” SO GARAY CALLS HIS AGENT AND TOLD HIM TO STOP THE SHIPMENT AND MAKE AN INSPECTION. THEY FOUND THE DRUGS EXACTLY WHERE THE DEA SAID THEY WOULD BE. 

PENILEY: IT WAS ONE OF THE BIGGEST DRUG BUSTS IN THE HISTORY OF MEXICO. SO IT WAS WORTH AROUND $400 MILLION ON THE STREETS. EVERYONE WAS CELEBRATING. SO MONTHS LATER, GARAY, THE MEXICAN OFFICER THAT GOT THE TIP AND SENT THE OPERATION AND GOT EVERYTHING. WHAT DO YOU THINK THAT HAPPENED? 

MARIA: OH. GARAY IS ARRESTED.

PENILEY: GARAY WAS ARRESTED. ACCUSED OF WORKING WITH THE CARTELS. 

MARIA: OH, MY GOD. OKAY, HOLD ON A SECOND. SO LET’S JUST BACKTRACK FOR A SECOND. SO THE GUY WHO IS LIKE THE STAR POLICE, WHO INTERCEPTED THE BIGGEST DRUG BUST IN MEXICO, MONTHS LATER IS HIMSELF ARRESTED AND ACCUSED OF CORRUPTION AND ACCUSED OF WORKING WITH THE CARTELS?

PENILEY: YES, GARAY WAS SENT TO PRISON. AND HE ACTUALLY WAS IN PRISON WITH JAVIER HERRERA VALLES, THE OTHER OFFICER WE TALKED ABOUT IN THE LAST EPISODE. 

HERRERA VALLES IS THE ONE WHO TALKED TO U.S. DIPLOMATS ABOUT HIS SUSPICIONS ABOUT GARCÍA LUNA. GARAY AND HERRERA VALLES WERE JAILED TOGETHER AND THEY WERE WAITING FOR ALMOST FOUR YEARS UNTIL THEY WERE EXONERATED IN LATE 2012, JUST AROUND THE TIME WHEN GARCÍA LUNA WAS LEAVING OFFICE. 

[MUSIC]

PENILEY: I ACTUALLY WAS VERY INTERESTED IN GARAY’S CASE BECAUSE IT WAS ALL OVER IN THE NEWS AND, YOU KNOW, HE WAS ACCUSED OF COMMITTING A LOT OF CRIMES. HE HAD NEVER TALKED ABOUT THIS CASE BEFORE.

MARIA: HOW DID YOU GET HIM TO TALK? BUT OKAY. 

PENILEY: YOU KNOW, HE DIDN’T WANT TO TALK TO ME. SO I SAID, “LET ME READ THE CASE. LET ME READ THE FILES.” AND THEY SAID, “YEAH, YOU WON’T  READ ALL THAT PAGES.” AND I SAID, “YEAH, I WILL”. SO AFTER I READ ALL THE PAGES, I CALLED HIM AND I SAID, “I WANT TO TALK TO YOU. I HAVE SOME DOUBTS.” IF YOU READ THE DOCUMENTS, THERE WAS NOTHING AGAINST HIM THAT REALLY COULD PROVE THAT HE WAS WITH THE CARTELS. AND THEN HE WAS EXONERATED BY A JUDGE. SO WHEN I INTERVIEWED HIM [GARAY], HE TOLD ME THAT HE SUSPECTED THAT THE SEIZURE, THE ONE THAT WE JUST TALKED IN THE MEXICAN PACIFIC PORT, WAS SO LARGE THAT IT MUST HAVE MADE A LOT OF PEOPLE REALLY ANGRY. AND MARIA, CAN YOU GUESS WHO COULD HAVE BEEN ONE OF THOSE ANGRY PEOPLE?

MARIA: GARCÍA LUNA?

PENILEY: ACTUALLY, THAT’S WHAT U.S. PROSECUTORS THINK.

NOW, THE U.S. PROSECUTORS HERE IN NEW YORK ARE ACCUSING GARCÍA LUNA OF BEING THE CORRUPT OFFICIAL WHO WAS HELPING TO SMUGGLE THOSE 23 TONS OF COCAINE INTO THE U.S. AND THIS IS THE SAME CHARGE THAT GARAY WENT TO JAIL FOR.

MARIA: I GOT TO TELL YOU, I’M HAVING A MOMENT. I MEAN, LIKE, MY JAW IS ON THE FLOOR BECAUSE THEY’RE GOING TO CHARGE THE GUY AND PUT HIM AWAY IN PRISON SO HE CAN’T SAY ANYTHING. IT’S REALLY CRAZY.

YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT THIS WITH A SENSE OF LOGIC. SO THE DEA, YOU KNOW, THEY SUPPOSEDLY HAVE THIS GREAT INFORMATION. THEY’RE LIKE, WE KNOW EXACTLY ABOUT THIS HUGE COCAINE SHIPMENT THAT’S COMING FROM COLOMBIA AND TO MEXICO AND THE UNITED STATES. WE’VE GOT THE SERIAL NUMBERS OF WHERE IT’S GOING TO BE TRANSPORTED. AND YOU’RE GOING TO TELL ME THAT THEY DIDN’T KNOW WHO WAS BEHIND THE WHOLE SHIPMENT?

PENILEY: I THINK THAT’S THE QUESTION, MARIA. DID THEY KNOW ABOUT THIS DURING ALL THESE YEARS WHILE PEOPLE WERE INCARCERATED IN MEXICO UNDER FALSE CHARGES OR THEY DIDN’T? I MEAN, THE U.S. DID EVENTUALLY INVESTIGATED WHAT HAPPENED, BUT YEARS AFTER THAT. FOR EXAMPLE, NOW THE INDICTMENT AGAINST GARCÍA LUNA STATES THAT IN ORDER TO BUILD THE INVESTIGATION AGAINST GARCÍA LUNA A SPECIAL CRIME FIGHTING UNIT BASED IN NEW YORK, WORKED WITH THE DEA’S NEW YORK DIVISION, THE NYPD, THE NEW YORK STATE POLICE, AND AT LEAST EIGHT OTHER AGENCIES. AND AT THE END OF 2019, A GRAND JURY FINALLY VOTED TO INDICT HIM. BUT AGAIN, THIS WAS MORE THAN A DECADE AFTER THE SHIPMENT FROM COLOMBIA WAS SEIZED IN MEXICO AND GARAY WAS WRONGFULLY IMPRISONED.

MARIA: I MEAN, I’M JUST THINKING ABOUT THE FACT THAT YOU HAVE THESE LIKE HIGH LEVEL, THE WAY YOU TALK ABOUT, A SPECIAL CRIME FIGHTING UNIT THAT’S WORKING WITH THE NEW YORK STATE POLICE, EIGHT OTHER POLICE AGENCIES, TRYING TO FIGURE THIS OUT. AND IT’S LIKE…IT TAKES UNTIL 2019 WHEN THEY INDICT.

PENILEY: AND OF COURSE, DURING THAT TIME WITH EL CHAPO ON THE LOOSE, HE WAS ABLE TO CONTINUE BRINGING DRUGS TO THE U.S. YOU WILL HEAR OF THOSE LARGE DRUG BUSTS ALL THE TIME, BUT THE BUSINESS DIDN’T STOP.

[ARCHIVE]

NEWS: THE POLK COUNTY SHERIFF”S DEPARTMENT SAYS THE LARGEST DRUG OPERATION THIS YEAR IS GOING ON AS WE SPEAK. 

NEWS: FEDERAL DRUG INVESTIGATORS AND TWO LOCAL POLICE DEPARTMENTS MAKE A HUGE DRUG BUST. 

NEWS: IT IS THE LARGEST HEROIN BUST IN OHIO HISTORY, AND IT HAPPENED RIGHT HERE IN NORTHEAST OHIO. 

NEWS: POLICE ARE CALLING IT ONE OF THE BIGGEST DRUG BUSTS IN B.C. HISTORY. MILLIONS OF DOLLARS WORTH OF COCAINE SEIZED FROM A SAILBOAT IN PORT HARDY TEN DAYS AGO. 

[CLIP MONTAGE ENDS]

MARIA: SO ESSENTIALLY FROM THE YEAR 2000 UNTIL 2010, THE NUMBER OF COCAINE USERS REMAINED STABLE.

PENILEY: NOTHING WAS CHANGING, ACTUALLY, WITH ALL THIS MONEY AND ALL THESE OFFICERS AND ALL THESE INVESTIGATIONS AND THE DRUGS WERE STILL ON THE STREET.

MARIA: ESSENTIALLY IT MEANS THAT THERE WAS A STABLE MARKET FOR EL CHAPO AND THAT EVERYBODY WAS MAKING MONEY AT THIS POINT. AND I’M THINKING, YOU KNOW, THIS IS THE CITY WHICH IS MY HOME, AND IT’S THE CITY WHERE GARCÍA LUNA IS GOING TO BE ON TRIAL, RIGHT. AND IT’S REALLY SAD BECAUSE WHAT I’M THINKING ABOUT IS THE WAY THAT I COVERED THIS STORY, RIGHT. WHICH WAS THE PEOPLE WHO WERE DYING OF DRUG OVERDOSES. COMMUNITIES THAT WERE BEING OVERRUN BY DRUG DEALERS. AND THE FACT THAT ALL OF THIS WAS IN THE LEAD UP TO THE ATTACKS ON THE TWIN TOWERS. THE ENTIRE CITY GETS TRAUMATIZED. 

[ARCHIVE]

MARIA: THREE LONG MONTHS. BUT RAFAEL HERNANDEZ STILL CAN’T GET SEPTEMBER 11TH OUT OF HIS MIND. YOU HAVEN’T WATCHED THIS SHIRT SINCE THAT TIME.

HERNANDEZ: I HAVEN’T WASHED THIS SHIRT. I JUST PUT IT OVER THERE.

MARIA: THEY ARE, AFTER ALL, NOT ALONE IN THIS TRAGEDY. THE PAIN THESE DAYS IS UNIVERSAL AND OH SO LARGE. MARIA HINOJOSA, CNN, NEW YORK.

[CLIP ENDS]

MARIA: I END UP EXPERIENCING PTSD. SO, I’M VERY HONEST. RIGHT. A LOT OF US TURN TO SELF-MEDICATION. IT’S NOT THE BEST THING. YOU KNOW, THIS IS WHEN I ACTUALLY END UP SMOKING POT AND FEELING REALLY GUILTY ABOUT IT AND HIDING IT AND FEELING BAD ABOUT IT. IT WAS THE THING I WAS MOST ASHAMED ABOUT. BUT FOR ME IT WAS SOMETHING THAT WAS HELPING ME TO GET BY. 

PENILEY: AND YOU ARE NOT THE ONLY ONE IN PAIN HERE IN NEW YORK. A LOT OF PEOPLE WERE SUFFERING TRAUMA AND THEY WERE DEALING WITH DRUGS AND THEY NEEDED TO BE PROVIDED WITH THOSE DRUGS. AND THAT WAS FOR YEARS, YOU KNOW, NEW YORK CITY SPENT YEARS TRYING TO RECOVER FROM ALL THE FEAR AND ALL THE ANGER AND ALL THE TRAUMA.

MARIA: BUT WHERE YOU HAVE SOME PEOPLE LIKE CHAPO GUZMAN AND ALLEGEDLY GARCÍA LUNA, WHO ARE LIKE, THIS IS THE MOMENT TO MAKE A LOT OF MONEY.

PENILEY: AND THE FACT THAT THESE TRIALS ARE HAPPENING IN THE U.S. AND HERE IN NEW YORK—FIRST EL CHAPO’S TRIAL, AND THAT NOW THIS TRIAL— HELP US TO TRY TO GO BACK AND TRY TO UNDERSTAND A REALLY HARD MOMENT FOR THIS CITY AND THIS COUNTRY AND SOME WAYS THAT THE PEOPLE WAS DEALING WITH THIS THAT NEVER WENT INTO THE HEADLINES BACK THEN.

[MUSIC]

PENILEY: MANY MEXICAN JOURNALISTS HAVE BEEN REPORTING FOR YEARS ABOUT GARCÍA LUNA’S POSSIBLE CORRUPTION AND TIES TO THE DRUG CARTELS, AND THEY HAVE FACED CONSEQUENCES FOR DARING TO DO THIS COVERAGE. FOR EXAMPLE, MY FRIEND ALEJANDRO GUTIERREZ. HE’S A REPORTER AT THIS LEGENDARY MEXICAN MAGAZINE CALLED PROCESO. IN 2007, HE PUBLISHED A BOOK AND HE DOCUMENTED ALLEGATIONS FROM RIVAL CARTELS THAT THE AFI, THE POLICE AGENCY THAT GARCÍA LUNA WAS LEADING THEN WAS PROTECTING THE SINALOA CARTEL. AND THIS IS THE FIRST BOOK, AS FAR AS I KNOW, THAT ACTUALLY PRINTED THAT SUSPICIONS FROM THE GENERAL AGUILERA AND THE OTHER GENERALS, THOSE THAT WE HAVE BEEN DISCUSSING.

MARIA: OKAY, SO THAT’S JUST HUGE. SO WHAT HAPPENED.

PENILEY: AFTER PUBLISHING THE BOOK, ALEJANDRO RECEIVED DEATH THREATS AND HE WAS FORCED TO EXILE IN MADRID. AND HE HAS BEEN LIVING THERE EVER SINCE.

MARIA: SO JUST TO BE CLEAR, THIS IS A JOURNALIST, WHO BASICALLY DOCUMENTS HOW GARCÍA LUNA MAY BE CORRUPT. AND AS A RESULT, HE HAS TO LEAVE THE COUNTRY WHERE HE WAS BORN AND HE’S NOW LIVING IN SPAIN.

PENILEY: ANOTHER MEXICAN JOURNALIST, JESUS LEMUS, HE WAS ARRESTED AND SENT TO JAIL IN 2008 AFTER HE DENOUNCED CORRUPTION RELATED TO THE FAMILY OF PRESIDENT CALDERÓN. LEMUS WAS ACCUSED OF BEING HIMSELF A MEMBER OF THE CARTEL. 

MARIA: A JOURNALIST WAS ACCUSED OF BEING A MEMBER OF THE CARTELS? OK.

PENILEY: YEAH. SO HE HAS DENOUNCED THAT WHEN HE WAS DETAINED BY THE FEDERAL POLICE —THE FEDERAL POLICE THAT ALSO WAS LED BY GARCÍA LUNA—HE WAS TORTURED TO FORCE A CONFESSION OUT OF HIM. AND AFTER THREE YEARS IN PRISON, HE WAS RELEASED BECAUSE THERE WAS NO EVIDENCE AGAINST HIM. SO, AGAIN, “SORRY FOR THE INCONVENIENCE. YOU CAN GO HOME NOW.”

MARIA: YIKES. 

PENILEY: AND ANOTHER CASE IS THE JOURNALIST ANABEL HERNANDEZ. FOR YEARS, ANABEL HAVE BEEN COVERING ALL OF GARCÍA LUNA’S ALLEGED TIES TO THE CARTELS AND HIS ILLICIT ENRICHMENT. SHE RECEIVED NUMEROUS DEATH THREATS AND WAS FORCED TO LEAVE MEXICO. SO NOW HERE IN NEW YORK, THE PROSECUTION HAS ACCUSED GARCÍA LUNA OF ATTEMPTING TO SILENCE JOURNALISTS THROUGH HARASSMENT. 

MARIA: SO I GOT TO BE HONEST WITH YOU. WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT THIS, I START TO GET REALLY FREAKED OUT. BECAUSE I’VE NEVER RECEIVED ANY DIRECT RETALIATION FOR THE REPORTING THAT I’VE DONE. MÁS BIEN, I’VE RECEIVED A LOT OF ACCOLADES. AND YET, YOU’RE GOING THROUGH THIS LIST OF JOURNALISTS WHO YOU KNOW, WHO ALL WERE POINTING FINGERS AT GARCÍA LUNA, AND ONE WAY OR ANOTHER, ESSENTIALLY, THEY’VE ALL GOTTEN FUCKED.

PENILEY: YEAH, SO WHEN PRESIDENT CALDERÓN SAYS THAT THERE WERE CERTAIN RUMORS, IT WAS NOT CERTAIN RUMORS. IT WAS THE WORK OF BRAVE JOURNALISTS THAT WERE SUFFERING THE CONSEQUENCES OF DOING THE REPORTING THAT THEY WERE DOING.

MARIA: AND THEY WERE SAYING: “LOOK, THERE’S A CORRUPT MOLE INSIDE THE MEXICAN GOVERNMENT.” AND INSTEAD THEY’RE ALL FORCED TO LEAVE THE COUNTRY OR TO BE SILENCED. AND IT’S NOT JUST GARCÍA LUNA, THIS IS WHERE I’M LIKE, EEEKK.

PENILEY: IT’S THE WHOLE SYSTEM.

MARIA: IT’S THE WHOLE SYSTEM AND IT INVOLVES THE UNITED STATES.

PENILEY: BECAUSE THAT SYSTEM INCLUDES THE MONEY FROM THE U.S. AND THE AGENCIES FROM THE U.S.

[MUSIC END]

MARIA: I MEAN, IF YOU HAD SEEN YOUR FELLOW JOURNALISTS IN MEXICO BEING IMPRISONED, BEING FORCED TO HAVE TO LEAVE THE COUNTRY BECAUSE THEY WERE LOOKING INTO THIS GUY, GARCÍA LUNA. WHAT WOULD MAKE YOU SAY, “HMM. I THINK THE GUY I WANT TO LOOK INTO IS GARCÍA LUNA.”

PENILEY: SO FOR ME, IT WAS IMPORTANT TO MAKE SURE THAT HE WAS NOT JUST GOING AND LIVING IN MIAMI WITH ALL THIS MONEY AND LIVING AS A MILLIONAIRE AFTER HE WAS ALLEGEDLY RESPONSIBLE FOR ALL THESE CRIMES.

SO WHAT I DID, I KEEP REPORTING ON HIM, BUT, YOU KNOW, THIS WASN’T MY MAIN JOB BACK THEN. I WAS ALREADY A FULL-TIME INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER WITH UNIVISION. AND I HAD TO COVER OTHER STORIES. GARCÍA LUNA WAS NOT A PRIORITY ANYMORE. HE WAS NOT IN OFFICE AND HE WAS NOT IN THE NEWS. SO I WAS DOING ALL OF THIS IN MY OWN TIME, NOT SLEEPING, AFTER MY KIDS WENT TO BED, GOING OVER THOUSANDS OF DOCUMENTS JUST BY MYSELF. AND EVEN THOUGH I WAS DOING THIS IN THE PRIVACY OF MY HOME, I THINK THAT GARCÍA LUNA KNEW WHAT I WAS DOING.

MARIA: I MEAN. SOME PEOPLE MIGHT SAY, “ESTÁS LOCA” YOU WERE JUST, LIKE FEELING LIKE YOU’RE PARANOID, BUT YOU’RE LIKE, “NO, ACTUALLY…” YOU REALLY BELIEVE THAT THIS GUY HAD A SENSE OF WHAT YOU WERE DOING?

PENILEY: YES. AND IT WAS NOT JUST ME BEING PARANOID. ACTUALLY, ONE DAY I WAS CONDUCTING AN INTERVIEW WITH A SOURCE ABOUT MY INVESTIGATION. AND DURING THE CONVERSATION, I MENTIONED THE NAME OF GARCÍA LUNA’S LAWYER HERE IN NEW YORK. WE TALK ABOUT THE LAWYER IN GENERAL TERMS. I DIDN’T SAY ANYTHING SPECIFIC. BUT THEN THE NEXT DAY I RECEIVED AN EMAIL FROM THE LAWYER TELLING ME THAT HE KNEW THAT I WAS MENTIONING HIM DURING INTERVIEWS, AND HE WAS WARNING ME THAT I SHOULDN’T BE TELLING PEOPLE THAT HE WAS ONE OF MY SOURCES, WHICH, TO BE CLEAR, HE WAS NOT. AND I NEVER SAID THAT.  

MARIA: I MEAN, HOW COULD HE KNOW IF YOU WERE HAVING A PRIVATE CONVERSATION WITH THE SOURCE? HOW COULD HE KNOW?

PENILEY: I HAVE NO IDEA. I TRIED TO FIND OUT. I WROTE BACK TO HIM. I ASKED HIM WHY HE HAD SENT ME THAT EMAIL. I ALSO REQUESTED AN INTERVIEW WITH HIM. NOW I HAVE BEEN REQUESTING HIM ANOTHER INTERVIEW FOR THIS PODCAST, BUT HE HASN’T RESPONDED. AND STILL, SEVERAL OF MY SOURCES HAVE TOLD ME THAT GARCÍA LUNA HIMSELF KNEW ABOUT ME. THEY SAID THAT GARCÍA LUNA, YOU KNOW, ME TENÍA MUY PRESENTE.

MARIA: IT MEANS BASICALLY YOU WERE IN THE MIND’S EYE OF GARCÍA LUNA, EEK.

PENILEY: YEAH, BUT IN SOME SENSE, THE SAME WAS ALSO TRUE TO ME. YOU KNOW, THE INVESTIGATION TOOK A PART OF MY LIFE, ACTUALLY, SOMETIMES LITERALLY A PART OF MY LIFE. BUT I WILL TELL YOU MORE ABOUT THAT IN THE NEXT EPISODE.

MARIA: OH, MY GOD, YOU’RE GOING TO LEAVE ME HANGING LIKE THAT. ALL RIGHT. WELL, I GUESS THAT MEANS WE HAVE TO SERVE SOME MORE TEQUILA, BECAUSE THAT WAS SERIOUSLY A GOOD CLIFFHANGER. ALL RIGHT, HERE WE GO.

PENILEY: AND NEXT ONE, WE SHOULD WARN THE AUDIENCE, IT’S GOING TO BE REALLY PERSONAL EPISODE.

MARIA: YOU HEARD THAT. THE NEXT ONE IS GOING TO BE REALLY PERSONAL. ALL RIGHT. HERE WE GO. SALUD 

VOICE: ON THE NEXT EPISODE OF USA VERSUS GARCÍA LUNA:

[CLIPS]

PENILEY: I RAN AS FAST AS I COULD. THE FLOOR IN MY APARTMENT WAS SHAKING. THE WALLS WERE CRACKING. I WAS TRAPPED INSIDE MY APARTMENT.

MARIA: I GUESS I’M STUCK ON THE FACT THAT THE LAST EMAIL YOU SEND BEFORE THE EARTH STARTS SHAKING AND YOUR LIFE IS ALMOST LOST IS TO GARCÍA LUNA. 

PENILEY: I TOOK A CHANCE AND I CONTACTED A PERSON VIA TWITTER AND THIS PERSON WAS VERY CLOSE TO GARCÍA LUNA. AND THEY SAID, “I HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR YOU TO REACH OUT.”

CREDITS: USA VERSUS GARCÍA LUNA IS AN ORIGINAL PRODUCTION BY FUTURO INVESTIGATES, A DIVISION OF FUTURO MEDIA IN COLLABORATION WITH LATINO USA. 

LEMONADA MEDIA IS OUR ADVERTISING AND DISTRIBUTION PARTNER.

OUR HOSTS ARE MARIA HINOJOSA AND PENILEY RAMÍREZ —EXECUTIVE PRODUCERS OF FUTURO UNIDAD HINOJOSA, THE INVESTIGATIONS AND SPECIAL PROJECTS DIVISION OF FUTURO MEDIA. 

THIS SERIES IS EDITED BY ANDREA LÓPEZ-CRUZADO. OUR LEAD PRODUCER IS VICTORIA ESTRADA. OUR ASSOCIATE PRODUCERS ARE ROXANA AGUIRRE, SOFÍA SÁNCHEZ AND OSCAR DE LEON. 

FIELD REPORTING FOR THIS EPISODE BY NANCY TRUJILLO. FACT CHECKING BY AMY TARDIF. SPECIAL THANKS TO KEEGAN HAMILTON, CORRESPONDENT AT VICE NEWS. 

NANCY TRUJILLO AND RAÚL PEREZ ARE OUR PROJECT MANAGERS. 

OUR ENGINEERS ARE STEPHANIE LEBOW, JULIA CARUSO AND LEAH SHAW DAMERON.

ORIGINAL THEME SONG BY JACOB ROSATI.  

THIS SERIES WAS MADE POSSIBLE WITH SUPPORT FROM THE W.K. KELLOGG FOUNDATION, CHAN ZUCKERBERG INITIATIVE AND HISPANICS IN PHILANTHROPY. 

YOU CAN LISTEN TO THE REST OF “USA VS. GARCÍA LUNA” TODAY, WHEREVER YOU GET YOUR PODCASTS AND ON OUR WEBSITE FUTUROINVESTIGATES.ORG — THAT’S FUTURO INVESTIGATES DOT-O-R-G. VISIT OUR SITE TO FIND MORE INFORMATION ON “USA VS. GARCÍA LUNA”. 

WE CONTACTED OR ATTEMPTED TO CONTACT ALL THE INDIVIDUALS AND ENTITIES MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE. SOME COULD NOT BE REACHED OR DECLINED TO COMMENT AND OTHERS DID NOT REPLY TO OUR EMAILS OR PHONE CALLS. THE ANSWERS WE DID RECEIVE ARE INCLUDED IN THIS EPISODE.

The work of Futuro Investigates is made possible by the W.K.Kellogg Foundation, Chan Zuckerberg Initiative, the Tow Foundation, the Geraldine H. Dodge Foundation, Michelle Mercer and Bruce Golden, and Hispanics in Philanthropy.

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